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Those Who Live By The Sword...

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#1 SFX


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Posted 15 January 2009 - 06:56 PM

Without meaning to justify or support Hamas in any way I think it worth recalling that the state of Israel, that so despises "terrorism" was itself born from terrorism.

I think people should do some research of groups such as Irgun and the Lehi



Yitzhak Shamir, _ Prime Minister Of Israel 1983-1984 1986-1992, one of the three leaders of Lehi after Yair Stern's assassination, argued for the legitimacy of Lehi's actions:

There are those who say that to kill [Clifford] Martin [a British intelligence corps sergeant] is terrorism, but to attack an army camp is guerrilla warfare and to bomb civilians is professional warfare. But I think it is the same from the moral point of view. Is it better to drop an atomic bomb on a city than to kill a handful of persons? I don’t think so. But nobody says that President Truman was a terrorist. All the men we went for individually — Wilkin, Martin, MacMichael and others — were personally interested in succeeding in the fight against us.

So it was more efficient and more moral to go for selected targets. In any case, it was the only way we could operate, because we were so small. For us it was not a question of the professional honor of a soldier, it was the question of an idea, an aim that had to be achieved. We were aiming at a political goal. There are many examples of what we did to be found in the BibleGideon and Samson, for instance. This had an influence on our thinking. And we also learned from the history of other peoples who fought for their freedom — the Russian and Irish revolutionaries, Giuseppe Garibaldi and Josip Broz Tito.

It is also worth pointing out that the Lehi aligned themselves with Hitlers Nazis seeing them as "preferable" to the British

Now I am sure that many can argue in favour of the actions ( terrorist killing of men women and children) by the groups but the point is that they contributed to the frormation of the state of israel with many active members going on the positions of prominence ( including prime minister)

Thus by their vary nature and history and the fact that Israel does not condemn them Israel is in fact sanctioning the use of terrorist acts by Hamas.

If Israel condemns Hamas, or for that matter any "terrorist" organisation then it must condemn Irgun and Lehi

Prominent members of Lehi

Yitzhak Shamir, Israeli prime minister 1983-1984 and 1986-1992.
Natan Yellin-Mor, member of the Knesset 1949-1951], leftist advocate of peace with Arabs.
Israel Eldad, leader in the Israeli national camp
Geula Cohen, member of the Knesset
Amos Keinan, writer

Prominent memebers of Irgun

Meridor, Yaakov – Fifth Commander in Chief (1913-1995); Likud member of the 10th Knesset.
Begin, Menahem – The Last Commander in Chief (1913-1992); first Likud Prime Minister of Israel.

Yitzhak Shamir, Israeli prime minister joined the Irgun in 1937; joined the Stern faction in 1940; commander of the Lehi after Stern's assassination.

and for those that argue that Israel was in fact "born" when Moses led the Jews out of Egypt i would remind them that Moses killed the Jews ( men women and children) who opposed him and his "troops" took the "promised land " by force, again killing men women and children who stood in their way. - according to the Bible .....

And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp; and Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle; and Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now, therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him; but all the women-children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Numbers 31:13-18

"And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'"

(Numbers 25:3-4)

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

(I Samuel 15:2-3)

"And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."

(Deuteronomy 2:34)

"And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house."

(Ezekiel 9:5-6)

Please don't get me wrong I am not anti Jewish or pro Islam. I just think these things need to be born in mind when people point accusing fingers at the actions of one group while ignoring the actions of others

Yes Moses and the Irgun were a long time ago..but does Israel condemn them ?

Selected Irgun, Haganah and Lehi attacks
Main articles: List of Irgun attacks during the 1930s and Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine War

  • June 30, 1924. According to Israeli journalists Shlomo Nakdimon and Shaul Mayzlish, Dutch Jew Jacob Israël de Haan was assassinated by Avraham Tehomi on the orders of Haganah leader Yitzhak Ben-Zvi[29] for his anti-Zionist political activities and contacts with Arab leaders.[30]
  • 1937–1939 The Irgun conducted a campaign of violence against Palestinian Arab civilians resulting in the deaths of at least 250.[citation needed]
  • July 15, 1938*, a bomb left in the vegetable market in Jerusalem by the Irgun injured 28[31]
  • July 25, 1938* the Irgun threw a bomb into the melon market in Haifa resulting in 49 deaths[32]
  • November 6, 1944 Lehi assassinated British minister Lord Moyne in Cairo. The action is condemned by the Yishuv at the time, but the bodies of the assassins are brought home from Egypt in 1975 to a state funeral and burial on Mount Herzl.[citation needed]
  • 1944–1945 The killings of several suspected collaborators with the Haganah and the British mandate government during the Hunting Season.
  • July 26, 1946 The bombing of British administrative headquarters at the King David Hotel, killing 91 people — 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 others. Around 45 people were injured.
  • 1946 Railways and British military airfields were attacked several times.
  • October 31, 1946 The bombing by the Irgun of the British Embassy in Rome. Nearly half the building was destroyed and 3 people were injured.[33]
  • April1947* an Irgun bomb placed at the Colonial Office in London failed to detonate.[34]
  • July 25, 1947 The Sergeants affair: When death sentences were passed on two Irgun members, the Irgun kidnapped Sgt. Clifford Martin and Sgt. Mervyn Paice and threatened to kill them in retaliation if the sentences were carried out. When the threat was ignored, the hostages were killed. Afterwards, their bodies were taken to an orange grove and left hanging by the neck from trees. An Improvised Explosive Device was set. This went off when one of the bodies was cut down, seriously wounding a British officer.[35]
  • December 1947 – March 1948 Numerous attacks on Palestinian Arabs in the context of Civil War after the vote of the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine
  • January 5–6, 1948 The Semiramis Hotel bombing, carried out by the Haganah (or, according to some sources, Irgun) resulted in the deaths of 24 to 26 people
  • April 1948 the Deir Yassin massacre carried out by the Irgun and Lehi, killed between 107 and 120 Palestinian villagers,[36] the estimate generally accepted by scholars.[37][38]
  • September 17, 1948, Lehi assassination of the United Nations mediator Count Bernadotte, negotiator of the release of about 31,000 prisoners including thousands of Jews from German concentration camps during World War II,[39][40] whom Lehi accused of a pro-Arab stance during the cease-fire negotiations.

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 05:07 PM

Letter By Albert Einstein to the New York Time Dec 4 1948 New Palestine Party. Visit of Menachen Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed. A letter to The New York Times. Saturday December 4, 1948 by Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt, Sidney Hook, et.al. New Palestine Party. Visit of Menachen Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed. A letter to The New York Times, published in the "Books" section (Page 12) of Saturday December 4, 1948 by Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt, Sidney Hook, et.al. Source: Text from original microfilm TO THE EDITORS OF NEW YORK TIMES: Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine. The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents. Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement. The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future. Attack on Arab Village A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants (240 men, women, and children) and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin. The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party. Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model. During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute. The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots. Discrepancies Seen The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal. In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin. The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism. ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE. New York, Dec. 2, 1948

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 05:17 PM

Beware the Fascists..They are not Black Shirts, Brown Shirts, Christians, Jews or Muslims. They are simply Fascists and will don any garb or follow any religion that suits their agenda. "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it,"

A consultant involved in the nascent Jewish Identity Administration has warned government officials of the dangers of its potential work in high schools, arguing that its primary goal is a fascist rather than an educational concept.

Nadav Berman Shifman, a doctoral student at Hebrew University and a veteran high school teacher in Jewish studies, was part of a meeting earlier this month at the offices of the Jewish Identity Administration to formulate recommendations for supporting organizations that are active in Israeli high schools in the field of Jewish studies.

The creation of the administration is anchored in the coalition agreement between the Likud and Naftali Bennett's Habayit Hayehudi Party. The administration will sit in the Religious Services Ministry, which Bennett, who is also economy minister, heads.

The primary goal of the nascent Jewish Identity Administration, which will operate in high schools, is the "creation of a wave of awareness to strengthen love for the Jewish homeland, for the Jewish people and for historic Jewish tradition," according to a document obtained by Haaretz.

This goal is to be obtained through the "creation of a living, meaningful encounter for Jewish youth with the treasures of Jewish thought throughout the generations and with the historical legacy of the Jewish people," the work plan states.

In a letter Shifman sent to Bennett and Education Minister Shay Piron, he warned of the danger of the Jewish Identity Administration's activities in high schools. In his letter, he writes that the new body "aspires to operate in Jewish public high schools, to invade the Education Ministry's area of jurisdiction and to act in a manner that is contrary to the ministry's spirit." Moreover, he adds, the administration is promoting a course of action that is extremely nationalistic, perhaps even racist. An extensive examination is required in order to prevent a hostile ideological takeover of Israel's public education system."

The work plan for the new body's "high school task force" presented at the meeting stated that the administration's goal is "to restore the State of Israel's Jewish soul" and that one of its practical objectives is the "establishment of an infrastructure of educational and community activities that will focus on the "creation of a living, meaningful encounter for the general public, especially Jewish youth, with the legacy and the traditions of the Jewish people."

In addition to a "wave of awareness," the work plan notes that the objectives of the program of the high school task force are "to increase the connection of Jewish youth with social and national values" and "to enable direct contact for Jewish youth with value-related issues in the history of Jewish thought … and to actively integrate the Torah's wisdom in the everyday lives [of Jewish youth] and of Israeli Jewish society as a whole."

"The 'creation of a wave' is a concept taken from fascism, not from the field of education," writes Berman Shifman in his letter. "The modus operandi of the Jewish Identity Administration is more an act of underhanded opportunism than a process intended to reflect and shape education."

The Education Ministry stated on Monday night that no discussion has yet been held with the staff of the Jewish Identity Administration on the subject of activities in Israeli high schools. Attempts to obtain a response from the Religious Services Ministry proved unsuccessful.

The head of the new administration and former IDF chief rabbi, Brigadier General ‏(res.‏) Rabbi Avichai Rontzki, responded that "schools are totally free to decide what external groups they wish to work with, and I am not referring only to religious groups. We want to help these organizations, which, in any event, are already active in the field."

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